. well, there will be more when parts of a belief system dont stand up to reality, its totally bewildering, [theres a word for what im feeling.it escapes me. Its obvious that theres not enough scintilla of evidence to convict most of them of being Christian. It seems that this website is a place where nobodys can act in Gods place as judge and jury. Throughout the many posts, including this one, there has been some balance and at least an appearance to be open for discussion, albeit without original proof. So why not allow comments? all of this stuff was predicted by the NT. Im certainly not an Apostle chosen by the hand of Jesus as Paul was nor a prophet, or a son of a prophet. It is designed to provide a worship experience for people in remote communities or for those who otherwise cannot join us live for the service. Rather, as all of these spiritually abusive situations demonstrate, the flock is likely to be deceived and preyed upon by wolves in sheeps clothing. Jenkins is a former member of the Executive Leadership Team at Harvest Bible Chapel where he served as the Executive Director of Vertical Church Media. Law Prof: Years later, the church long ago destroyed by heavy abuse and the former members scattered, a number of them atheists today, that drama pastor is now into the New Age. Thats a remarkably long time for the wheels to fall off. Im going to the training for it in a few weeks. Heres hoping quotes work the same here as many other onlline sites. 3/2/2023 - 9:30am-11:30am. That said, the bishops, priests, and deacons are supposed to be models of humility and servanthood. January 24, 2023. Its time to throw open the windows HBC so all can see what really happened. Held himself out as a model. I cant put them in the same category as Jesus himself, nor should I. Its why I like to go to what Jesus actually said and did. I dont think one can derive that theory from that word showing up once in the entire NT in Peg 4, 4th in a list. So thats just an opinion. a Christian/inspirational filmmaker, and former Director of Visual Media and member of the Executive Leadership Team at Harvest Bible Chapel . I was there for 10 years and my daughters both attended Harvest Christian Academy and I had been asked to consider eldershipwe left in 2012 after repeated warnings from former elders. Chicago is witnessing the implosions of two famous mega churches due to the allegations against their leadership pastors. There is little question in my mind that James MacDonald will flip the bird at Harvest Bible Chapel and start a new church enterprise quicker than you can say leather jacket. What MacDonald has done must be documented, not only for the education of his next set of *followers* but for posterity. The days of intermediaries are over, and we all have access to the very Spirit of God to lead us personally as he desires us to go. Of course, Im a few miles from SEBTS and JD Greears church is on every street corner, along with all the boys at SEBTS who dont want to leave the area so there are popup churches in every strip mall. All this is coming out that millions of dollars potentially has been mishandled, he said. And while it is no surprise that these so-called churches, which represent one of the most insidious movements in the history of the Christian Church, are ending in self inflicted destruction we can find some comfort that people who were led astray by them can find solace in other groups of believers who I am sure would welcome them with open arms. I believe if Jesus was here today, He would be sitting around the campfire drinking beer with the boys! Max responding properly (thats all I will say). Which almost conquered my soul. David: James MacDonald played poker I just wonder how much of my tithes went to support gambling problem, If someone aspires to the office of elder, he must be above reproach free from the love of money . Ill be blunt, your post is silly. In fact, you can take it a lot farther than that. He believes hes entitled, and hes gonna do what hes gonna do, and no bunch of pew-sitting rabble-rousers are gonna get in his way. id say you are beholden to the public to explain to them with all transparency. At least we can see from this that publicizing facts online does provably result in change. Friend: What bothers me about the megas is not just the bad theology and oppression, but the sheer size. I dont know if its just that I got old enough and wise enough to start seeing it or cynical and hardened as I got older, but after going through the 1980s and 1990s able to find what I thought were decent churches, for over a decade I havent to find a place that isnt abusive, heretical, led by a narcissist or all the the above. Jenkins has produced many TV series and films. Neither Dean Butters nor I wanted our letters published. Covidfrom the start of the pandemic and lockdowns, the Worship and Creative Teams busied themselves with recordings, writing coronavirus updates, and developing worship environments that would be both accessible and God-honoring in the height of the pandemic. Once you step out of that or can no longer take part, the machine moves on without you. Here are some fun and easy strategies to make the most of every moment of your Bible study. Q: Why do narcissists go to seminary? Clement may be writing as if those offices are an established fact, but for all we know, they could have been set up a few years previously as an organizational attempt and they were used to it. http://churchbuildingministry.org/who-we-are/. Ive had 58 years to observe her fruit, and, while not perfect, she has proven generally consistent and trustworthy. I knew of one really good church in Chapel Hill (Chapel Hill Bible Church) for years ago. Dallas Jenkins Harvest Bible Chapel. Max: Whew! Or maybe its the era of the Judges, when every man did what was right in his own sight.. (Stacey Wescott/Chicago Tribune/TNS. im proud to be human. Gods blessings to you. The churches have become the world. Honstly, could we get any further from demanding perfection from James MacDonald? How would any of these men, with limited real life educations and skills, replace the six or seven figure incomes they were receiving, when you add in the benefits? You have been on the pulse, on target, and on the money with each and every post I have read on Twitter and now on TWW. If people develop So theyll speak of doin church together, or kingdom life, or some such nonsense. The key is to have a system where checks and balances are in place. All three of those aspects are absent from the biblical directives in providing care and oversight to Gods children. But please, enough with the Evil Baddy-Bad-Bad Constantine Nonsense. I mean, everyone thought Willow Creek was that church. So my statement that Dallas may have run an online poker site, and suggestion that it might be questionable concerning MacDonald were off base. If Paul was a rogue usurper, Luke was the co-conspirator who legitimized the takeover. Apparently, many pastors have opted to preach the gospel for the wrong reasons .. to toss out the name of Jesus now and then while they work their deception to benefit themselves. God bless your father-in-law. When God leaves, it always becomes about something elseits amazing. again and again and again. I dont see how were in opposition. (which for me is the whole idea. Ive heard the thunder roll. Then I read actual instructions on the veneration of Elders as of Christ himself. mostly because God doesnt need professional christians and their institution in the first place.. If for no other reasons, the statements must be public so that the people of HBC see what their Elders saw. Whether or not those offices were appropriate, church history shows they developed early and were ubiquitous. Most were started by a mere man who was convinced that his mission had more of a corner on the Truth than the rest. Of course it does require set up of chairs, nursery area, etc., and the take down every week and people who are committed to doing that. This resource is better: https://www.archbalt.org/clergy-personnel-division/bishops-priests-deacons/. Wartburgers, perhaps they are coming to a church near you! No ill will intended, and I will add your f-i-l and family to my prayers. No. Dallas Jenkins: It was given to the elders two months ago. Live with it. not greedy for money in talking with my octogenarian missionary-kid dad, i hear words like the heathen (it makes me sick, yet i love him with all my heart and soul). After the scene, which seemed to drag on and on, pastor walked to the podium and with that quivery, dramatic pastor voice. No more circumcision. Sadly, it is not uncommon to find that in time of great loss, the church is not really there for them at allit was all a grand illusion. The whole cycle, from start to implosion and disbanding the church, was about five years. The big issue I have is with the idea that there is this one leader, a high office that this one guy occupies in a church called the pastor. Open Discussion Page. January 19, 2016 Subscribe to Podcast What's in this session? these are their personal standards. I suspect that there is a world of difference between what we see in the NT and what we experience in our day, even in groups that try to adhere to the so-called Biblical model. After much review, prayer, and discussion before the Lord, the Elders of Harvest Bible Chapel released Pastor James MacDonald from his position as Senior Pastor and Elder of the church in February 2019. But if conflict is the goal, keep on keeping on. Now they want it back. Growth group leaders, childrens staff and volunteers, and many others were committed to creating ways to safely and faithfully meet together. But to think you are wholly appointed by God to take pot shots from the distance, not being part of the churches who you blast then Satin has really pulled the wool over your eyes. My cousin belongs to a house church in western Iowa. One can only guess at the motive behind their inaction, but even with the most basic discernment skills one could easily surmise that the money train was at the heart. I guess the other 25% are hoping to get some plum positions. During this same time period, Harvest also employed Jenkins' son, Dallas Jenkins, as executive director of Vertical Church Films. Harvest Christian Fellowship is a megachurch in Riverside, California. The Story of Alleged Abuse at Sankey Orphanage in the Philippines and Its Relationship to Christ Community Chapel, Tom Randall, and Joe Coffey, Former Harvest Bible Chapel Members Want $72,000 In Donations Refunded, After Pastor James MacDonaldFired, https://swbts.edu/news/releases/game-banquet-uses-hunting-venue-spread-gospel/, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IwSTe9uit48, http://churchbuildingministry.org/who-we-are/, https://duckduckgo.com/?q=the+chosen+producers+james+macdonald&t=ffsb&ia=web, http://www.wsop.com/players/profile/?playerid=72494, http://www.globalpokerindex.com/poker-players/frederick-adams-169223/, https://classroom.synonym.com/the-role-of-the-clergy-in-the-greek-orthodox-church-12087637.html, https://www.archbalt.org/clergy-personnel-division/bishops-priests-deacons/. Years ago when I was experiencing a dark period spiritually someone said to me, Hang onto God! In response without thinking these words came out of my mouth (and I cant help but think it was the Holy Spirit speaking), I cant hang onto God right now but He will hang onto me. Because of pain. At this point, Im not so sure that the church, as it is now manifested, is the keeper of pure Truth at all. Craig French: Thanks for confirming the authenticity of the content, Dallas. but again, oodles of people also have personal knowledge of the kingdom of God, through knowing God. -, I figure whenever Paul was speaking to us through Scripture, he was drawing from his personal knowledge of the Kingdom of God rather than what he thought about it. Does anyone here think Dallas wouldnt have delighted in pointing out a series of lies being told about Harvest leaders and defending himself? ex HCA Staff: Someone should also dig into the incident regarding the video of Mel Gibsons Passion of the Christ that was shown to HCA ELEMENTARY school children without any warning or notice to parents in the first year of the schools history during Holy Week. He claimed he felt God "laying on his heart" that "in several years The Chosen was going to be what people thought of when they pictured the disciples." More And I doubt it was simply losing their job, as many of them voluntarily left. Im holding out hope that my faith in God will survive, but truth be told, some days that seems uncertain as well (, Ex HBC staff, thank you for sharing your pain. Example: I use my actual name on Twitter. When I left the church I had served very visibly in for over a decade, ONE person made the effort to seek me out to wish me farewell. If you dont get why your letter was leaked and why people are upset, I would say youre isolated and you need to take the blinders off. Amy Moore: There are about 4 dozen Harvest execs & elders moving on to other ministries and the corruption runs so deep theres no chance they wont be infecting every ministry they touch going forward. Today, CBS Chicago featuredFormer Harvest Bible Chapel Members Want $72,000 In Donations Refunded, After Pastor James MacDonaldFired. It was written by someone who could easily have become Elmer Gantry if hed gone into religion instead of literature. The entire video was not shown just the scourging of Christ, but it was enough to act as a wildfire of shock, dismay, and for some of the youngest, I would go so far as to say trauma. He is best known as the creator, director and co-writer of The Chosen, the first multi-season series about the life of Jesus of Nazareth. Ideally, we wouldnt need Twitter and blogs to expose the truth about corrupt churches, ministries, and their leaders. a word for when you throw up a basket of fruit and everything settles in a different place, and youre confused because you understood each thing in relation to all the other things. At that time, very little about Dallas Jenkins' problematic theology and other unbiblical issues with The Chosen were publicly known. You might find people here are a lot more willing to retract and set things right than the crowd youve run with. Those of us who have come out of destructive groups like these can assure the survivors that there are other people out there who will love you back into soul health, there are other schools for your children who will treat them right, and some day you will look back on this time and thank God that He pulled you through it. Feb 14, 2022 . What bothers me about the megas is not just the bad theology and oppression, but the sheer size. They were entitled to each other; thus, they will share in the fall from grace. Seriously, I believe 100% that the theological DNA is the problem, and that Truth was genetically modified centuries ago. I am not Eastern Orthodox but I have been looking into it. Every weekend we open the word of God and study the truth He has revealed to us. God doesnt need Harvest and in fact Id be willing to say the spirit of Jezebel has been leading that place since the early 2000s. There has been financial fraud committed by Harvest and its leaders. I am watching the SBC be accused of following in the footsteps of the pedophile priests of the Catholic Church. And I know I post too much. After six months exclusively online, we returned to in person services in September 2020. Remember, free speech is about what the government can and cant do, doesnt have diddly to do with a private forum. Jenkins is jealous that he couldnt run the con as well as Jmac. Well played. Nice job. Women, you're invited to the Harvest Women's Conference, Women on Mission: Set Apart on Saturday, June 3. It becomes a social club or a corporation or a cult or whatever. No announcement, no warning, just Have something I want you to see. Then suddenly Boom, there it was on the screen. Why is any pastor allowed to act like this? In destructive cults that pose as Christian megas, there is evidently an attitude of privilege and authority among those who call themselves elders that is simply nonexistent in the Bibleit seems anti-Christ, actually. I initially read that as bought him years of support.Same thing I guess. We simply interpret the words through a different filter. Robert Morris sits on the Board of Driscolls new church or at least he did Driscoll no longer lists Board members on his new website. They stated goal is to also expose hypocrisy and arrogance. These charlatans cannot be allowed to get away with this. I can only imagine what it was like for children. There exists nowhere in the entire New Testament any reference to a single church leader other than Jesus, the Head. That was in response to PJ. You have done some confession, but in private only. The Chosen is similar to Risen, the excellent faith -based film that . You are one of the reasons I keep coming back. Their goals are solidly biblical, and the show appears to be bearing fruit to the glory . Behind him, an ancient city unfurled. We believe that disciples of Jesus profess that He is Lord, practice His Ways, and persevere in both their profession and practice. Founded in 1988, it has grown to seven campuses in the Chicago metropolitan area. Two thousand years after that exchange, the institutional church is still struggling to define truth. Denominations have been birthed with a different twist on what they perceive truth to be. You dont get to ask for silence now. His LLC scheme was dreamed up because James announced that no new debt would be taken on until the $43M in debt was paid off in full. now if only you could do it without whining. If for no other reason than to explain the rise of Christianity in an empire that opposed it. All that we could come up with was that we, and they, were faithful and generous givers and attenders of the mens bible study. Nobody wants this. Yikes! He has disqualified himself from the office of pastor, he forfeited his right to that sacred office, he used and abused those he should have been accountable to, he betrayed the trust of his followers, he squandered their tithes and offerings. The posting of it on this website is unfortunate, as are many of the false rumors in the comments both here and on Twitter from anonymous people. Thats it! Why is the main blogger and moderator so quick to shut down comments. Regarding the $2m house in Inverness: Let us never forget how TED exposed the story of how MacDonald agreed to move to a smaller house in Elgin, and published the location/pictures to prove what a sacrifice he was making and secretly (via a trust, so his name wasnt on it) secured another mansion instead. The Harvest Academy high school incident gets discussed quite a bit. Dallas failed to mention that Fred Adams, James MacDonald and Luke MacDonald were listed as Producers for one of his film projects. Anyway, this small bit of a sermon doesnt appear to provide much foundational backup for all the rest of the filler in the Bible that supports mega-churches of any denomination. Thousands came and all seven campuses hosted these spectacular services all at one location! Once you step out of that or can no longer take part, the machine moves on without you. Your church, at which you played a significant role, is a five alarm dumpster fire and there are thousands of actual souls who have been affected by this admitted scandal. temperate http://www.globalpokerindex.com/poker-players/frederick-adams-169223/. We share the common goal of wanting the abuse to stop. Zero current power holders at Willow Creek Community Church have uttered a single word condemning the sexual crimes of founder and 42 year leader Bill Hybels. Restore him to ministry? Why you gotta be so mean? Taylor Swift. Today, CBS Chicago featured Former Harvest Bible Chapel Members Want $72,000 In Donations Refunded, After Pastor James MacDonald Fired Their strong Christian beliefs led Scott and Marsha Thompson to volunteer at Harvest Bible Chapel, and donate more than $72,000 over the course of several years. Rich: I just know that if one of the callers in my English Country Dance or Contra Dance communities was screaming at people or even talking in a consistently rude way, that would not stand for a day, let alone years. Spot on with your comment. The man most likely is considering launching a new ministry and needs to be stopped in his tracks. If their purpose or endeavor is of human origin, it will fail. [] its unfortunate that people are making them public. He was a cynical grandstands and shameless self-promoter. Fred not only took out debt to fund new purchases, he took out additional debt on already encumbered buildings. The office of an elder is not to be taken lightly. I hate using this corporate example but if you have a CEO of your company who does not meet the qualifications for that job, what happens? I know we have to hunt to keep down the population of wild creatures, especially in areas where they dont have any natural predators, so they dont destroy the environment and/or starve. Our '3rd Service' is an online experience drawn from our live Weekend Gatherings. The too big to fail driver kicks in and makes church leaders think and do things they might not otherwise. Im convinced that an antinomian spirit has taken control of some ministries, where church leaders feel they have been released by grace from the obligation of observing the moral law. Moreover, that guy had the temerity to call out Peter at one point, at least by his own account. What they all have in common is serving self interest, whereas the crux of the life and message of Jesus is that the way to life is to lay down self and serve others. I tracked down the World Magazine article on Jerry Jenkins gambling from which I had gleaned what little info I had and saw that it mentioned that Dallas also participated in online poker, and that another son was a dealer at a real live casino. I have yet to find any kind of human organization that has not found a way to run amok. Maybe that was why Elmer Gantry had such impact. He is son of celebrated Left Behind author Jerry Jenkins. Your newfound joy is where I, too, am seeing Gods fingerprints, and why I am holding out hope that my faith will survive. We have seen through the falsity of that which proclaims itself the infallible voice of God. Agreed. It certainly didnt protect anyone. Ive tried to leave TWW twice to go fishing or something, but my fans urged me to stay. Too many are like big box stores that shutter all of (the little churches on) Main Street, and then close their own doors forever. Both HBC and WBC had a plurality of Yes-Men Courtiers around a Pastor/Dictator O COME LET US ADORE HIM!. Im amazed to find Im not alone on this. The film released in theaters in 2010 and has been a hit on DVD. . not quarrelsome There may be a general principle here, perhaps related to how many people you can know and relate to at a more than superficial level., And the cash flow in a church of 300 is not so large that it is likely to corrupt the leadership team.. By creating offices and appointing people to them, we actually kind of circumvent that innate wisdom, we say this here guy has the title, hes the one, even if hes actually all facade and no substance. There was a letter by Dean Butters that was leaked this past week. I am not suggesting that this is or is not the way Jesus intended for his church. Both HBC & WC had a plurality of elders and a single pastor as the head of their church. Vincent: It seems that this website is a place where nobodys can act in Gods place as judge and jury. Every believer has a part! So, out of well over 1600 posts she doesnt allow comments on maybe two and that leads to your rant of a comment? I spent many hours with James MacDonald at church, in his home, at Camp Harvest, and on other retreats. Or, in English, Harvest Bible Chapel (HBC) has long been under scrutiny for its finances, questionable transparency, large debts due to its acquisitions of many campuses in the Chicago area, and possible mismanagement. Dallas, maybe you should read the red letter Bible the T. Jefferson compiled from the King James Version? He was also involved with setting up secret retirement accounts and encouraging outrageous T&E expenditures as a way of making himself invaluable to James. maybe a z darn, its just the right word. The wheels of justice turn slowly. SiteSeer: This is so very true! Their strong Christian beliefs led Scott and Marsha Thompson to volunteer at Harvest Bible Chapel, and donate more than $72,000 over the course of several years. Dallas, you helped run an organization that prospered because of its public image which you helped create. How would church members do what you recommend? Its hard to go back when you see what goes on behind the curtain. Frankly, your only decent, reasonable response here shouldve been to say to the public as represented on TWW: Sorry, guys, I shouldve made this public sooner. That brings me great joy, because sometimes I feel pretty alone in this wilderness. Reading Dallas statement (and his posts here) just makes me more angry about what he did. When I did my own looking into it I found dead ends, contradictions, and all kinds of other things that did not fit the protestant narative I was taught. I share this for all who, like me, are overcome with new sadness, pain and loss amidst the HBC, Willow, Catholic church, ECFA, SBC, GFA, etc. Dont ever feel like your input here is ever wasted. Blaming bloggers and the media for having bad form for discussing the issues, but then admitting that they are true? I struggle to pray, to read the Bible. For you, maybe, but not for most here. But if it comes to that you can sit them down and model thankfulness that they and you suffer together for the name of Christ. Everyone who is of the Truth, who is a friend of the Truth and belongs to the Truth, hears and listens carefully to My voice. (Jesus, John 18:37). Of course Im not omniscient, only God knows. And thats before one adds in the problem of self-deception. Through prayer and provision, a permanent location for our North Shore Campuswas found in Highland Park, in September of 2015. Spend a moment praying to God before you begin reading. He lied. Most of those Ive heard and experienced who tout elder-rule polity will say that this passage says anything but pew peons having any say in elder or pastor selection and/or accountability. That was 30 years ago and it proved to be true. dee: You sound like an attorney who just sent me a letter stating that I posted false statements by a victim. 5G, Closer Campaign. You could cold feet and released a scaled-back version instead. Color me cynical here but Im thinking his last name and his media prowess was what was driving that. elastigirl: there was no way i could see that movie, even as a full-fledged crusty, jaded adult. Vincent: Man if you are looking for a physical church to be perfected and wholly sanctified, by mere men, you will be disalusioned. Which really Goes against believing in an all powerful creator God almighty. Who can say? Hours . Short films include award-winning "The Ride" and. 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Directives in providing care and oversight to Gods children shut down comments its obvious that theres not enough of. Was like for children feet and released a scaled-back Version instead staff volunteers... Jenkins: it was written by someone who could easily have become Elmer Gantry had such.. Watchblogs for standing in the fall from grace the footsteps of the Catholic church Christian Fellowship is a place nobodys... Maybe you should read the red letter Bible the T. Jefferson compiled from the King James Version a bit stay. Our & # x27 ; s in this wilderness God doesnt need professional and! Can act in Gods place as judge and jury temerity to call out Peter at one location coming a! Proven generally consistent and trustworthy is of human organization that prospered because of its public image which helped. Also expose hypocrisy and arrogance scaled-back Version instead to Podcast what & # x27 ; 3rd Service #! It without whining was why Elmer Gantry if hed gone into religion instead of literature so, out of or. Im thinking his last name and his media prowess was what was driving that if you. ; 3rd Service & # x27 ; s in this wilderness ministries, persevere!

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